Virtual Event - We Thought We Knew What Disruption Was

June 29, 2020

2020 has redefined "disruption" for most businesses and many are struggling to adapt. Marketing professionals need to prioritize building agile teams and MarTech ecosystems that can manage this current change and give them a stable foundation for whatever the future holds.

Join us for a virtual conversation and Q&A session with:

  • Scott Brinker, VP Platform Ecosystem at HubSpot; Editor at chiefmartec.com; Program Chair of MarTech
  • Andrea Fryrear, Agile Marketing Coach and Trainer, Co-Founder at AgileSherpas
  • Chris Baird, Chief Marketing Officer at ObservePoint

And learn best practices to:

  • Design a functional and sustainable MarTech ecosystem for your organization
  • Maintain continuity while adapting to increasingly disrupted marketing efforts and teams
  • Combine people, processes, and tech for ongoing marketing success and disruption resilience
  • And more



Chris Baird (00:05): 
Okay, well we want to welcome everybody to our discussion or panel today. We're excited to have a discussion about how to design a functional and sustainable MarTech ecosystem for all of our organizations and along the way, maintain continuity while adapting in this climate that we're in. Currently, we're excited to have a couple experts with us today. First, Scott Brinker, VP of Platform at ecosystem@hubspot and also the editor at chiefmartec.com. He's also the program chair of Chief MarTec. And then Andrea Fryrear, agile marketing coach and trainer and Cofounder of Agile Sherpas. And she also has a book. I'll let her plug that whenever throughout this. And then I'm Chris Baird. I'm the CMO of ObservePoint. So throughout today's discussion be sure to submit any questions that you have, and we'll answer those right in the chat pod to the right there throughout the discussion and also at the end. 

Chris Baird (01:09): 
So before I hand it over to our panelists, I don't think anybody could have predicted the volatility that we've seen so far this year in 2020. I know that most every company, whether you're a B2B or B2C, all teams have felt that across all industries. And I think all of us are being asked to make changes and reprioritize our projects, our initiatives, and our budgets and keep them in line with our company goals and our team goals. So I'd love to go over some tips today for how marketing teams can adapt their technology and their strategies and combine it with any personnel changes. So with that I'd like to lead off by asking Andrea. Talk to us about some of the major trends that you're seeing across the space and with some of the customers you're working with and also how businesses are adapting to it. 

Andrea Fryrear (02:04): 
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot getting thrown at us right at the same time, and the sudden shift to distributed work. I think there was a huge spectrum of how prepared and capable people were to handle that. And initially there was a lot of like, well, let's just kind of do the bare minimum to get by because this is going to be temporary. And, you know, it might be not great, but it won't be forever. And now, I mean, I just saw, I think it was yesterday that Google's said everybody's remote until July of 2021. And so like, this is no longer a temporary thing. And so I think realizing that there's been a significant disruption in the way that we see the work being done, right. We can't see it on an agile wall of sticky notes somewhere anymore. That's not a thing. 

Andrea Fryrear (02:56): 
And the way that we see one another, we interact with one another, has changed for individuals and teams, and functions are all just blown up. And so now it's about optimizing what we've got, right. Instead of just kind of sticking a bandaid on it and hoping that it's going to get better. Now, it has to be much more deliberate, but I think for a lot of people that we're working with, it's an opportunity, right? It hurts a little bit, but it can actually improve and make us more rigorous in the way that we visualize work and the way that we communicate. I know one team that does like, they designate water cooler time, right? Where like, you've got 30 minutes where Andrea and Scott are going to be at the water cooler together. And there's a channel on Slack and we're just chit chatting, you know, it's like scheduled socialization time. And it's just things like that, that we have to start being more deliberate about, and it's hard and it feels kind of weird for some folks at first, but now I think we're realizing it's a must have. 

Chris Baird (04:01): 
Yeah. It's here to stay for a little bit. And Scott, talk to us about some of the remote teams and how that changes technology and specifically maybe even the implementation and usage. 

Scott Brinker (04:12): 
So I think it's a really good point. Like when all this chaos exploded, I think you know, the main point of discussion was how this changed the relationship with customers because, you know, there were all these channels we had, depending on your business, that relied on a certain amount of either physical presence, in retail or, you know, face to face business meetings, or even in any sort of B2B marketing, you know, like physical events were like this really major channel by which we meet people and by which partnerships would evolve. And of course, all that just sorta like slammed to a halt. 

Scott Brinker (04:46): 
And so a lot of scrambling around like, okay, well, how do we either build out channels for digital engagement with customers, or even for those who already had some of these channels, like really be able to amplify the capabilities there to really make them a better experience for customers, because they're the only experience for customers. So we could spend an entire webinar just talking about that. But I think it's fascinating that, while there was so much energy focused on that, we kinda missed, at least for that first month or so, the disruption that's had on the way we actually operate, like the internal management, all of these sort of team dynamics, the way process would work. There's so much unspoken, undocumented process in how most companies operate, and it's suddenly had a huge disruption in that. 

Scott Brinker (05:40): 
I think that's actually the bigger change that a lot of companies had to adapt to. And to Andrea's point, I think as uncomfortable as that change has been, it's actually giving us a new set of skills you know, as marketing organizations that are going to be incredibly valuable, even beyond the resolution to the craziness of 2020. So I don't know. I mean, yeah, you got kind of two dimensions there, you know, part of this is what you're doing with evolving the way your MarTech supports your customers you know, really improving the digital channels of engagement. And then yeah. How do you reconfigure your MarTech in a way that supports the processes you have for running as a distributed remote team? 

Chris Baird (06:32): 
Yeah. I sometimes think internally here we have been kind of adopting the mantra of remote first and everything we do is remote first. And so specifically we've been looking at technologies that embrace that and that help us embrace that remote first culture. And I think it's making us more nimble and strong and rely on and develop communication and technology skills that we didn't have before. And so it's interesting to see, you know, what impact will this have in 2021 when we maybe hopefully go back to normal. So Andrea, anything to add to that, specifically maybe around how leaders can deal with this change, you know, those that own budgets and that own the responsibility to make these decisions on MarTech, implementations and technologies, how can they specifically deal with this change? 

Andrea Fryrear (07:23): 
Yeah, I mean, I think what a lot of us have realized in the last few months is how much work goes unseen, right? That there was no visibility into what was happening or what should happen next. And that, whether it's implementing different components in the marketing stack or changing the operational model or communicating differently with customers, these are all really big lifts that we need to do, and they need to be visualized. The big goal that is there needs to be seen, and then it needs to be broken down into its constituent parts. And so for leaders, I think becoming the kind of communication champions in a lot of ways of saying, here are the priorities, here's when we want them to happen. And here's the steps we believe needs to be taken. And then to be able to turn it over to the teams to start owning some of that execution, but the leadership piece of saying, "Alright, circle the wagons. Here's what we're going to do." is so important now. 

Andrea Fryrear (08:19): 
And to own the degree of variation, that's acceptable, right? Between what we were going to do and what we have to do now, like for some of us, it's been a total 180 pivot. Other people are able to make sort of smaller adjustments depending on the degree of disruption that you're facing. But for me, like leaders have to become this, this clear driving force, right. And to say, yep, things are weird, but this is where we're going and we're all gonna work together to get there. So just the communication and the prioritization, right? We can't do everything at once. This is the order of operations from an agile perspective. I think that's so important. You can't do everything at once. And to actually deliberately say, we're not doing these other four things, we're doing this one thing right now, until it's done is actually a really important skill that a lot of marketing leaders have to develop right now. 

Chris Baird (09:20): 
Yeah. Specifically, I feel like specifically pushing projects across the line. I felt that on our own team, sometimes it's hard when we're remote and we don't see each other face to face, but so Scott, maybe let's talk about any key considerations when building a strategy that is I guess, going into this year and into next year for building that marketing tech ecosystem. 

Scott Brinker (09:44): 
Yeah. So even if none of the craziness of 2020 had happened I think, you know, if I go back to the end of 2019, when, you know, all of us were making predictions of here's what's coming in 2020, I hate to go back to those posts now and see how badly we got that. But the truth is, yeah. You know, a pandemic aside, there was a trajectory of digital transformation (buzzword) that is just the way in which we operate marketing almost independent of, you know, the sector or industry in which we're working. 

Scott Brinker (10:20): 
I mean, every marketing organization is just becoming so much more digitally driven. Like software's become such an integral part of how they actually deliver their outcomes. And for a lot of marketers, this has been a challenge on a number of levels, right? It's a challenge because there are so many technologies out there. You know, I say this as the crazy guy who keeps like publishing that map of these solutions that people keep sending me hate mail over. I'm sorry about that. But right. I mean, there's just this explosion of software out here. Moreso than just the software, there's this explosion of these expectations from customers you know, the number of channels and touchpoints and how they expect our website to operate. I mean, just this entire, you know, set of expectations that has been really challenging to keep up with. 

Scott Brinker (11:14): 
And so how do marketers deal with that, pandemic aside? It was like, okay, well, a couple of things is this can all be done by like one person in marketing ops. You know, you need to start to find a way to distribute the leverage of the software in a way that the full marketing organization can really tap into the power of these tools. The second thing is like, recognizing that, okay, your MarTech stack, there's probably never going to be the perfect stack. Let's just put that concept aside. So what we are going to have is an environment where year over year, we can kind of expect our stack will evolve and it will change. And part of what we need to do is really be able to design our stack in a way that makes it easier to change and adapt, right? 

Scott Brinker (12:03): 
So those two things. So being able to distribute MarTech capability more broadly across your org and being able to design your stack in a way that can adapt to new technologies, you know, as they emerge pandemic aside would have been like great missions for us to focus on as painful as the pandemic disruption has been in many ways, it's actually only served to like accelerate and reinforce the motivation behind both of those. Um, so yeah, I mean, we can dig into a bit, but this idea of saying, okay, how do I design my stack in a way to adapt to change? And how do I design my stack in a way that it's not just the stack, but even the enablement around it—that it’s able to be accessed and leveraged by the broader marketing team?

Andrea Fryrear (12:55): 
I think too, like thinking about how much operations have changed, you know, in the last few months, and to be able to say now, okay, we've started to get our feet under us about what that looks like, right. Our processes have changed. And I think for a lot of people for the better, hopefully, but to then be able to say, what are the missing pieces that we need to enable that new process, right. And then to go be a much more intelligent buyer of software now that we've experienced this, right. I think it's always really hard to predict what you're going to need before you go and experience it. And we all got thrown into experiencing virtual work and channel fragmentation and audience needs and expectations changing dramatically over the last four months. So now we have a better idea of what we need to help us, and we can buy what we need to support instead of trying to predict the things that we'll need. And then we end up trying to shoehorn our ways of working into what the tech can do instead of buying tech to support what we actually need to be doing. 

Scott Brinker (14:01): 
Yeah. Wow. There's so much there that I agree with. You know, it's kind of funny that the thing about like, are you modeling to the tech or is the tech modeling to you, you know, in software, there's this thing called Conway's law that, depending on like the structure of your product team, your product will kind of mirror the structure of the team that built it. And it's kind of quirky and funny and actually very accurate, but I've found in marketing, it's just as often the other way around that people buy these software tools and they're like, well, I guess I have to adapt my organization to the way that software team thought about structuring this. And I think that's not the way to go. You know what I mean, I have a lot of admiration from our tech companies, but you know, as far as leaders of how you should design your organizational structure and operation, less so. But I think the one thing that, you know, even if you can't anticipate exactly what you're going to need a year from now, or two years from now, I think the one thing you absolutely will need is the ability to get whatever that next new thing is. 

Scott Brinker (15:14): 
And so I feel like one of the things that people didn't use to evaluate MarTech on was its interoperability and its openness and integration. That just wasn't when MarTech first really started to take off in the past 10 years, that wasn't a primary selling point you know, to most of the players in the ecosystem. And I think that's changed dramatically, particularly over the past few years, where now, when you're buying a MarTech solution, you not only want to make sure that it integrates with things you already have in your stack, you kind of want to make sure that that openness and integration is a core value of the product so that, hey, listen, when I do need something else two years from now that nobody's even invented yet, but there's, you know, instead of WhatsApp, you know, WhensApp suddenly becomes the hot thing, like how do I connect to that channel? 

Scott Brinker (16:04): 
You know, if you've got an open platform that's sort of designed to support that, I think you're ahead of the game. 

Chris Baird (16:12): 
I agree. And we have a comment from Tim. And by the way please post any of your questions in the channel and we'll take those. Tim brings up a point and reiterates this idea about saying no. And how do we, and when should we be saying no? I think as everyone knows, Scott, you're famous and also to some maybe as you alluded to, infamous for putting together the landscape of all the different possibilities and all the different decisions and technologies that we should be investigating. How is it that we can learn and train our teams to say no to certain technologies that might spread us too thin based on our resources? 

Scott Brinker (16:52): 
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I feel like this is one of these things where balance matters, you know, this idea of saying, oh, well, we don't want any other new apps, right. Just, you know, the fewest number of possible apps the better. Well, maybe, you know, I mean, part of the thing that's happened here is the definition of an app has just really changed dramatically. I mean, we're here in WebinarJam, you know, which is not one of the top five major public marketing clouds, but for what it does for this particular function, it's freaking awesome, you know, like really designed this way. And so if you're going to give a webinar and you're like, well, yeah, I have my primary stack, you know, maybe there's some meetings capability or webinar capability in that, I guess I technically could use that. 

Scott Brinker (17:54): 
And that would minimize the amount of software I had. An argument can be made for that. But if, you know, you find something like WebinarJam and you're like, well, actually this is so much more engaging. It's easier to use. I think it's a better experience for the audience. I can get it to integrate with my primary stacks on, they will get the data on this, if the value prop for what they're charging relative to what you get out of the engagement with your audience makes sense. It's like, I don't want to dissuade people from doing that. I think that's actually a great case, you know? So it's more about just having, it's not so much the number of tools as much as just making sure you've got a really clear framework of, is this delivering value to me relative to the total cost, you know, not just having to pay a subscription fee, but the cost of having a different tool and making sure the integration works and, you know, learning a different interface and et cetera, et cetera. 

Chris Baird (18:46): 
Absolutely. Andrea, anything to add as far as best practices or examples with people or teams that you've worked with on, on that. 

Andrea Fryrear (18:55): 
Yeah, it's interesting that the ops people are often kind of, I feel like overburdened with some of this already and we see more and more that they're getting tasked with making agile happen as well. So it's like, figure out the process and make sure you have the tools to support it and implement all of that. Good luck, see it in a year and a half, you know. So I think that it's a little bit of chicken and egg, too. You know, like Scott was saying about the ROI of a tool relative to how much time it takes to operate and how difficult it is to integrate. And then you have to figure out, you know, are there operational level changes that would need to be put in place to support it? And which one comes first, you know, like, do we need agility first or do we need tools to enable agility? Do they need to go together? Do we have enough people to do all of that at the same time? Like these are hard discussions and, you know, kind of circling back to the idea of what leaders need to do. Leaders need to make those hard calls, right. And then support the completion of those activities so that we're not running around and trying to do everything every day. 

Scott Brinker (20:09): 
And I think on the process versus technology side, I've seen numerous cases where people bought terrific technology and failed because they did not get the right process layer on top of it. I've seen very few cases of companies that have a really cracking process, you know, the way in which the team runs is structured, it's agile, it's just a well oiled machine and somehow—Oh, well, because they didn't have the right webinar tool they failed. I mean, you just don't see that scenario, and the first one you see a tremendous amount. And so, I mean, you know, if we really take a look at what the barriers are to success. Yeah. I think it's what, like 90% process and people, and 10% tools. 

Chris Baird (20:58):
Yeah. Tim has an interesting—another Tim actually, who sounds like he's in IT, if I were to guess, but he says for either of you—can you say something about the relationship between IT and MarTech in 2020, especially IT teams. So talking about IT teams needing to be at the table when making these decisions, anything to add to that comment? 

Scott Brinker (21:24): 
I mean, I agree a hundred percent. I think there was a period of time when MarTech was first evolving when marketing departments were first having to develop a set of technical capabilities. I think there was a fair amount of friction between IT and marketing of like, who's got responsibility for this, you know, what's the, governance associated with it. Cause this was just kind of a net new situation. Marketing had just never been that sort of a source, you know, of demand for technical freedom and capability. 

Scott Brinker (21:55): 
But I think this isn't unique to marketing, right? This is now every department and every company, you know, is empowered by all this technology. And I think there's starting to really become this reharmonization of saying, okay, I mean, the role of IT in this is very much helping to set the foundations around which this works and some of those foundations are technical, but frankly, some of those foundations, are even just simply good governance, you know, practices. Like, I can't tell you how many studies I've dug into about the concerns that get raised around security on marketing apps. And it's something that, to be honest, the marketing industry has not paid a tremendous amount of attention to their detriment, you know? And I think this is one of the big advantages of having experienced IT leaders at the table. 

Andrea Fryrear (22:48): 
Yeah. I think that the potential maybe for issues, right, and Tim, maybe implying some of this, is that I've seen happen with teams that I've coached where they have been politely offered only the tools that exist. Right. So like everyone uses Jira already. You're using Jira, right, whether you like it or not, marketing team. Um, and so that can be quite challenging. Right? And that precludes the ability for the marketers to select a tool that is more compatible, let's say in the way that they like to visualize work. And so I think that there's, again, a balance to be struck here between security governance, consistency across the enterprise, but also the ability to sometimes tailor according to the unique types of work, the use cases, without having this proliferation of stuff that IT can't track or can't manage effectively. 

Scott Brinker (23:55): 
You know, one of the funniest things to have watched—ironic, I should say—is when marketing tech and marketing ops was rising up, right. It was like, okay, no, IT, we need our freedom to be able to do these things our way, you know, fight against it. Now that marketing ops is a pretty big function, particularly in larger companies, you've got these other little marketing teams that are breaking away and saying, no, we don't want to use the standard marketing ops. We want to use our marketing ops, like no way, this is how we control this. So stuff does come full circle, but I think you're absolutely right, Andrea it's like, yes, there are potential downsides to specialization of tool choice within particular teams, but you can't only look at the downside and say, oh yeah, okay. Well just, this would be a reason not to do it. 

Scott Brinker (24:41): 
You have to balance it up against like, well, what are the benefits? You know? And if the benefits outweigh the costs or the downsides to it, isn't this part of what that adaptability and agility are all about? 

Chris Baird (24:55): 
Yeah. I totally agree. Something that we've talked about internally here is this idea of potentially organizations having a Dunning-Kruger effect on their own marketing stack and thinking, you know what, I think we're good. We have everything we need. And Robert Rios brings up a question directed to Scott. What are some tips for spotting holes in our existing marketing tech stacks? And then how can we better evaluate the different components of your current stack that could potentially be a better fit? So having this mentality of like, I don't know it all, you don't have the perfect stack, it's kind of a quest, it's a journey. How can we better our technology stack to improve our whole process? 

Scott Brinker (25:41): 
Yeah. That's a great question, I think all right. So it depends a bit on what you mean by holes in your stack. There's holes as in, oh, there's a capability that we don't have. Maybe we should have that capability. You know, there's holes like, you know, like data is leaking out somewhere. We're going to say the second category is so very important. This is where you might want to talk to the IT group and get some of their assessment on that. But I think for capabilities, as much as I'm a fan of the innovation that's happening across the MarTech landscape, I usually would recommend for people, don't go looking for capability. There's just so much out there. And the truth is for most organizations, they aren't using the capabilities they have in their current stack anywhere to its full potential and the ROI they're going to get on where they invest that energy are higher, nine times out of 10, so much higher than the former. 

Scott Brinker (26:36): 
I think, you know, what I would recommend, whether it's a new stack or an existing stack, is the strategy of doing a really comprehensive customer journey map of just understanding, you know, this entire end to end of how are we finding people? How are we engaging them? What are the different points they have with us? What are they expecting? You map this out and the expectations of customers and the expectations of the stakeholders inside the company that owned different pieces along that journey. And I think then if you find like, wow, there was a gap, there was something we should be doing here that we're not, or customers are unhappy. Then you start to look for a MarTech solution that might be able to help address that. But you've got, then, such a crystal clear use case, you know, how you're gonna measure it. You know, you're going to know what success looks like. 

Scott Brinker (27:23): 
I think that sort of like, you know, customer value, business value lens first is going to serve most people better than—cool things are out there. And what could I do with that? 

Chris Baird (27:37): 
It's kinda like going to the store without a shopping list. Whatever Oreos, whatever's on there, you're going to go, those look delicious and they look good. And, and a little bit of that is fine, right? 

Scott Brinker (27:51): 
Like to have like 5% of your MarTech be like, oh, let's just find some cool stuff and experiment with it, because you never know. I mean, this is how we discover new things, but yeah, if it's more than like 5% of your salary is going to that sort of stuff, I question the value it's delivered for you. 

Chris Baird (28:12): 
Good point. Anything to add Andrea, before we move on to a privacy question, it looks like we have something from Sean. 

Andrea Fryrear (28:17): 
No, I think Scott's right on there. And you know, I always think about the marketing team themselves as well, you know, and I think it's a similar thing. There's a feeling that like, we aren't being very productive. So if we just buy a tool, right, then that's somehow magically going to solve productivity problems, but there's something else going on there. Right. There's a process problem behind all of that. And what agile does a lot of times is show you that problem, right? Like it's going to make it visible in a way that that was not possible before. And that's a good thing, but we might also have a tendency to blame agile for the creation of that problem. When in fact it just showed us that it was there and, but that's step one, right. We have to know that it's there and then we can find a tool or a process or a person or whatever's missing to help it. But I think that the order of operations is the same, right. Don't go looking for the shiny solution, you know, out of the box, it's, there's probably a deeper issue, whether it's a customer journey map or some sort of visualized workflow. So you know, where things are getting stuck and where you actually need help. 

Chris Baird (29:22): 
Love it. Great points. So yeah, Sean has a point and just a question just asking us to comment on the privacy regulations, with respect to the framework. I'm guessing it's just your overall internal marketing framework and how we can weave in different privacy offerings to protect our brand and any of our team members from any legal issue. So Scott, Andrea, anything to comment on that? 

Scott Brinker (29:51): 
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. So one of the biggest problems in marketing for like a decade was data quality. You know, and everyone kind of knew it was a problem that, you know, we didn't have really accurate data on customers. It would decay over time. But it was kind of like fine. It was just like, you know, we've got this big pool of data. We just keep adding more data to it and we can blast messages across. 

Scott Brinker (30:16): 
It's all based on anytime we want, you know, and there was never enough motivation to solve the quality challenge because it always felt like, well, we can just make it up in scale. And then GDPR happened then, you know, everything that's sequenced out of that. And basically we're forced to start to implement, you know, data quality practices and really making sure we're representing customers the way they want to be represented in our marketing systems. And while there was a lot of resistance and an angst to that, I think actually, now that we've started to come out on the other side of that, I think most marketers would say, this has actually been much for the better, you know, I mean, the relationships we have with customers, the efficacy of things, you know, around personalization and engagement patterns are just so much better. And so I think you start to see some of that reflected in the MarTech tools. You know, there's a whole growth of both, you know, core MarTech products, but even specialist products that are helping companies with you know, privacy management. I encourage everyone to embrace it. I think its impact on your performance is actually even better than the impact on keeping you out of jail, which is a nice benefit. 

Andrea Fryrear (31:31): 
Yeah. And, you know, we tend to take off like our consumer hats when we become marketers, you know, it's just like, I'm gonna just, like you said, Scott, blast a message out to everybody. Even though if I was on the receiving end of that email, I'd be like, delete, like super fast, but we do it anyway. And so to think of ourselves as the recipient of these messages, right. And how would we want to be marketed to, we would want our privacy respected, we would want to receive relevant offers and personalized pieces. So like we gotta flip the perspective a little bit and like Scott says, embrace it and think about how that benefits you and your end users. And not just as like this hurdle that we're being asked to jump over. 

Chris Baird (32:20): 
That's a good point. I think initially when targeted messages were coming about maybe 10 years ago or 15, whenever it was, 12 years ago, I think everyone was reluctant. But then they realized, oh, this experience makes my life better. And it helps me save money and be more efficient. And I think having that same mentality in our own marketing is kind of like the golden rule. Like how would you want to be marketed to personally from any business that you follow or any consumer brand? So any recommendations, this is from Robert, any recommendations on resources that currently can assist all of us in really developing a value driven roadmap? I know that's maybe a little bit broad, but maybe potentially a framework, thought leadership piece, a conference. Is there anything that you would respond to with that? 

Scott Brinker (33:06): 
Well, obviously the MarTech conference, when you go there. No, I mean, like to me, the grand vision of, you know, agile in its best form is like establishing, you know, that sort of framework of what you're going after and how do you have a systematic way to keep iterating on those goals? 

Andrea Fryrear (33:30): 
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is kind of, what's the big, giant step you're trying to take? And then what are the little shuffle steps along the way? But, in terms of like resources and everything, I mean, my agile nerd in me is like build a backlog, right. Capabilities that you need to implement. And then the tools that are connected with them, prioritize it and work through it, you know, like visualize it, get alignment from everybody on the tools that are likely to have the biggest impact and how difficult they are to implement. Right. Give it a score, prioritize the rank and then work through it just like you would with any other ongoing, marketing initiative and work for the MVP, right? Like what's the minimum viable of all of this that you can get into place? And over time you start to see it compound and the tools, if you've chosen well, work together and build on one another's capabilities. But it's, you know, like I said, my agile nerd brain is like build a backlog and work through it. It's just, do that. 

Chris Baird (34:41): 
Yeah. So Scott and Andrea, let's wrap it up here. You've both been doing this for a long time. Let's talk about the confluence of agile people, processes and technology, what that looks like in a successful organization. I want to take a shot on that. 

Andrea Fryrear (34:59): 
Oh, we definitely need like another 45 minutes for that. No, I think that it's like the three legs of a perfectly balanced stool, right? Where you have people who are empowered to make good choices who have cross-functional skills, so they can help one another and be a truly collaborative team. You've got tools that allow them to be customer-centric, deliver value often, remove bottlenecks in their workflow. And then you've got systems and processes that connect execution level people with strategic, you know, higher level kind of look at the big picture type marketing leadership. And so they all are in, they work in harmony, they connect frequently, right. And the way you know it's working is value to the customer, right? Fast flow of continuous value out the door, whether that's an internal stakeholder or an actual end user, either way this is the kind of Holy grail of all of it working in sync. 

Scott Brinker (36:01): 
I love it. I think if I was gonna say two things to this confluence of the technology and then the people in process, it's really all about empowering small teams to be able to move quickly, effectively, make decisions, implement work, iterate on that work. And I think, you know, agile as a methodology, as a process structure is just so beautifully designed for that. And I think if you're pairing that on the technology side with tools that are designed to enable greater self service, that ability that teams, you know, the fewer cases where a team has to take a ticket and wait for someone in marketing ops or something like that to do something for them, you know, and the more empowered they are to just do that themselves—Oh, I can run this Looker report to see how this performance was doing. Oh, I need a landing page. 

Scott Brinker (37:10): 
I can actually build a landing page as the template for it. I can do this. I have access to a particular list that accesses control. There's a queuing function to make sure we don't hit people from too many different directions at the same time. But for the most part, I'm able to just do a lot of this work myself when you go through these things. And you're like, you know, that that not only makes these teams more efficient, it makes them happier. And it makes them more effective. They've now got this process where they're running these sprints, they're making progress against the goals, as many of the possible tools that they need to achieve that are within their hands. That's just a wonderful combination. And, you know, as an industry, we're still on that journey. 

Scott Brinker (37:57): 
But the progress has been made, and going back to what we started with, I think the forced progress that has been made here under the circumstances of 2020 is actually really encouraging and I can feel it. 

Chris Baird (38:10): 
I can feel the difference it makes when you incorporate a technology and a new process into your team. It almost does as much for the team internally, as a small group working together, as it does for hitting your external results. And I think it's really impactful to have technology integrated into a workflow where a team is given hope, when before everything seemed disorganized. I'm thinking about the way that we used to do projects internally until we implemented a solution. And it's just a world of difference. It almost changes people's moods when they come into our weekly planning meeting, knowing that there's a process and there's a technology to back it. So really great. Well, let's wrap up. Andrea and Scott, how can people get ahold of you or reach out to you if they have specific questions, Twitter, LinkedIn. 

Andrea Fryrear (38:59): 
Yeah. All the things. Um, I'm Andrea Fryrear, and that's a weird last name. So I'm very easy to find Andrea@agilesherpas, if you want to shoot me an email, I'm very easy to find. 

Scott Brinker (39:09): 
Right. And Scott, I am at Chief Martec, but without the H at the end, long story on that. So chiefmartec.com for my blog. That's also at Chief MarTec on Twitter. Reach out, delighted to chat with you. 

Chris Baird (39:27): 
Great. Well, thank you both so much for your time and your expertise. And I really appreciate you joining us and contributing in the preparation. So if anyone has any questions, feel free to shoot them over to us. And also, look forward to our next panel. We're doing monthly panels here in 2020, that's a new thing. So look forward to the invite for next month, but thank you so much for joining and Scott, Andrea. Thanks again.

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