Episode 9: Best Practices for Building & Maintaining a Digital Governance System

August 2, 2022

DataChat LIVE! Episode 9: Best Practices for Building & Maintaining a Digital Governance System

Special guest Jenn Kunz, Consultant at 33 Sticks, a data intelligence company joins this episode of DataChat LIVE! to discuss:

  • Technology governance and why it matters
  • Data privacy: what should be governed and audited?
  • Customer Journey Analytics from Adobe
  • Best practices for building and maintaining a digital governance system


Jenn Kunz

Jenn Kunz is an industry expert on Adobe/Google Analytics, MarTech pixel implementation, tag management, and data layers. She has 15 years of experience helping enterprise organizations solve their analytics problems holistically, no matter where they are in their digital measurement evolution or what tool set they use. As a consultant at 33 Sticks (a boutique agency specializing in strategic analytics and optimization), she helps clients streamline the implementation process and get more value out of their tools, decreasing costs and headaches for developers, project managers, and analysts alike. On the side, she's used her background as a developer to create free industry tools like the Adobe Analytics Beacon Parser and the mobile app PocketSDR.

She loves helping and collaborating with others in the industry, and most days can be found in #measure slack or twitter doing just that.


Cameron Cowan

Cameron Cowan is the Sr. Director of Product Strategy & Marketing at ObservePoint and a veteran of the marketing analytics, digital advertising, and enterprise software industries. He plays an active role in product management, technical marketing, and GTM execution. Prior to his time at Strala, Cameron spent 13 years working for Adobe (via the Omniture acquisition), and gained experience in account management, consulting, and technical sales before establishing himself as a leader in product management, technical marketing, and business strategy. His career has included living overseas on multiple occasions and collaborating with marketers and technologists on four continents.

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Cameron Cowan: (00:01)

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of DataChat LIVE! This is Cameron Cowan, your host. I am coming to you live from the foothills of the Wasatch mountains here in Pleasant Grove, Utah. Along for the ride as is our usual arrangement, is Mike Fong. Say hello to everybody, Mike. 


Mike Fong: (00:22)

Hi, Cameron. Hello again, it's great to be Robin to your Batman once more and coming to you from North of London, Watford, UK. 


Cameron Cowan: (00:31)

Awesome. Love to always have Mike over and have his perspective on things that are beyond the borders of us here in North America, but for an even different perspective, we are excited to announce our guest for today's episode and that is Jenn Kunz. Jenn, say hello to everybody. 


Jenn Kunz: (00:49)

Hello, everyone. I guess I’m telling them I’m from Atlanta, if we're saying location. 


Cameron Cowan: (00:54)

Atlanta, are things kind of scorching down there?I know I've been to Atlanta once in the summertime. I didn't really enjoy it. 


Jenn Kunz: (01:01)

Yeah, it is hot. Nobody actually calls it Hotlanta, but yes, it is hot right now. It's hot and muggy, but hasn't been that bad of a summer. 


Cameron Cowan: (01:13)

Good, and Jenn and I actually go way back. I was looking at our LinkedIn profiles and comparing notes. I know I remember working with Jenn back in the Omniture days shortly after I started there. Jenn, I think you started at Omniture at about 2006 or so? 


Jenn Kunz: (01:27)



Cameron Cowan: (01:28)

Okay, and have definitely been in the digital marketing and digital analytics ecosystem for quite a while. Why don't you just give a quick introduction to tell our audience a little bit about how you got to where you're at now? 


Jenn Kunz: (01:39)

Sure. So I was a web developer, and in the Utah valley. And like you said, started at Omniture in 2006 and really I've been consulting pretty much the same role implementation consulting ever since, took a couple years off to have kids and to be honest, thinking I was leaving the industry permanently and never coming back. And then two years later decided to come back and been at different agencies. I did return to Adobe for a while. I was there for four or five years. And then for the last four years, I have been at 33 sticks, which is a boutique analytics agency focusing on analytics and optimization. 


Cameron Cowan: (02:20)

Okay and I see in your title, principal architect or principal analytics architect. Tell us a little bit about what does that mean for you day to day? What kind of things are you working on and how are you helping the clients you work with? 


Jenn Kunz: (02:32)

So my main job is helping my clients get the right data into their first party analytics tool, Google analytics, or Adobe analytics, which means I spend a lot of time in data layers and technical specs and tagging systems. So in addition to analytics, a lot of my job has become about third party marketing tags and deploying those and all of the different ways of deploying and cookies, so server side and all of that stuff has all come up more recently. 


Cameron Cowan: (03:02)

Fantastic. So you got a perspective on a number of topics we were hoping to hit on today. I think I'm going to dive over and just give a quick overview about some of the things that we do want to hit on. As we look at what was sent out in some of the marketing announcements, whole bullet point list, I don't think we're going to have time to even hit on all of these over the next 25 minutes or so, but there's a couple of key newsworthy things that are happening in our industry that we want to make sure we cover off and get your perspective on, Jenn, and also just understand more broadly some of the principles that you have been working on and some of the information you pass along to the clients that you engage with. 


Cameron Cowan: (03:40)

From that perspective, the one I want to hit on first is Google Analytics 4. We all hopefully, I don't know if it’s hopefully, but we all are tending to see this banner show up anytime we log into Google Analytics property that's not yet updated telling us, hey, the clock has started. We are now, since our last episode, now within that one year mark, and I'm also going to call out Jason Thompson. So somebody you work with quite a bit over there, 33 sticks, Jenn, and Jason had some pretty strong words for our audience back when we had him on the show. I think it was October of last year to the point where I pulled a couple of the clips and he said GA4 is still beta. It's not ready for prime time.Start to use it, but at best parallel path it and do not make it your primary source of truth. We're now about three quarters past that. Jenn, love to get your perspective on where you think things are at with GA4. Are you encouraging your customers to wrap their arms all the way around it? Are there reasons to still be a little hesitant and push off, even though that date is starting to creep on us? 


Jenn Kunz: (04:44)

Yeah. I have opinions on GA4 as well. 


Cameron Cowan: (04:47)

That's why you're here. The opinions are what we want to hear. 


Jenn Kunz: (04:50)

Yeah. I don't know if it's fair to still say beta, but it almost feels like it is because they are releasing a lot of updates and making changes. Like they just re-released bounce rates after saying it was gone last week. So it is definitely a work in progress, I suppose, is the way to put it. But since they're kind of forcing everyone's hand to move to it, you either have to embrace it or you have to start thinking about other tools. So I have a client that a few weeks before they announced that UA, Universal Analytics, was dying, had chosen to go from Adobe Analytics to Google. So just after making that decision, we found out, we're not moving to Universal Analytics at all. It's not even worth it, probably to dual implement and let's just dive fully into GA4.


Jenn Kunz: (05:41)

 So we're currently in that process and seeing some of the things that will work better, you know, for instance, if you have a data science team and you're working a lot in big query and things like that, then GA4 is really good for that. If you are perhaps a little newer or you're a friendly reporting interface. Google Analytics used to be a wonderful entry level tool. You didn't have to have a bunch of resources dedicated to analytics to get value out of it. I think with GA4 and even on the Adobe side, move to the web SDK and Customer Journey Analytics, which I know we'll talk about in a little bit, we're moving more and more away from that. Anyone can dive in and start doing it, potentially a lot more value in the data science and the deep dive stuff, but it is definitely a higher learning curve. 


Mike Fong: (06:41)

It almost seems easier to go from Adobe to GA4 now, rather than from GA 360 or GA Universal, whatever you choose to call it to GA4, just because there is that kind of, it's almost, as you mentioned, a different target audience for these two tools. It's been a long time since I did my GAIQ many years ago anyway. Is there any equivalent training or qualification certification for GA4? 


Jenn Kunz: (07:08)

Yeah, I think that it is still around, GAIQ and If they don't currently have GA4 certifications, then they've got to be coming out very soon, but I know Krista Seiden has some really good GA4 training courses, more and more documentation and training is popping up, but it's also hard to have good training and documentation when the tool is changing constantly. 


Mike Fong: (07:33)

We changed our mind about bounce rate. Here it is, there you go. 


Cameron Cowan: (07:36)

Better wait for some of that dust to settle before we formalize a certification. 


Jenn Kunz: (07:39)

Well, and I remember like back in 2013 I had a client that was on GA was comparing GA and Adobe as an option and having then both run and then Google kind of redefined session visits without a whole lot of warning and for a small company that may not be as big a thing, but this was a massive conglomerate of many, many different brands and they had to retrain like 400 people. So innovation's good. Google's always been able to move more quickly because it doesn't care as much about hurting people's feelings with older technology, where Adobe, everything I learned in 2006, a lot of that is still applicable, but even that's not true as of the last few years with the web SDK, I suddenly am a rookie again.


Cameron Cowan: (08:33)

Yeah, I think we all are feeling that change in the ecosystem quite a bit. So let's actually shift off of the Google discussion and talk a little bit about where I think Jenn, you're a little bit more specialized on and that's Adobe and specifically I want to talk about Customer Journey Analytics. I know that this has come up in a number of customer discussions I've had just recently. Adobe's very excited about Customer Journey Analytics. It looks like it solves some really unique use cases and problems. Tell us a little bit about just level set for the whole audience, Adobe analytics versus Customer Journey Analytics. How are they comparable? How are they different? When should you think about moving to one from the other? 


Jenn Kunz: (09:13)

So Customer Journey Analytics…now first, I'm not an Adobe evangelist, like Eric Matisoff is going to hear this and be like, hmmm, hoping they get this all right. And I don't have any clients currently on it, but I've been involved in a fair amount of training and betas and playing around with it and just kind of the ideas behind it. So CJA, Customer Journey Analytics, is basically an analysis workspace, which is I think a wonderful reporting, but maybe that's just, I've been in it and using it for a long time and it's constantly improving in everything. It's basically an analysis workspace, but for any data set that you want. So it allows you to pull in, if you want, it can be a data set that has absolutely nothing to do with analytics or it can be a data set like a call center where you now want to merge that identity of that your online user Jane Doe 123 called into the call center and now let's have one interface where you can see all of that data together. 


Cameron Cowan: (10:21)

And they're able to do that because CJA sits on the experience platform, not just in an individual product like Adobe analytics, is that right? 


Jenn Kunz: (10:28)

Yeah. So CJA, you can get as an add-on to Adobe analytics, and you can certainly view your Adobe Analytics data in it and send your data along, whether you have an old pre Web SDK, so app measurement implementation or you're moving to the Web SDK. I will admit it all definitely was designed more, it feels like, with Web SDK in mind, but it is all built on the experience platform and to be honest that's another thing I have strong opinions on is the branding that Adobe has gone with with Platform that everything is named Platform now and there's Platform, the CDP, like the actual paid tool that it is, kind of what experience Platform used to be. And now there is kind of Platform the technology, the stuff behind the web SDK and CJA, and then there's platform the brand like they're calling client side Adobe launch. Now that really doesn't have a ton to do with Platform, but it's all Platform now. 


Cameron Cowan: (11:31)

Yeah. Well there's one thing we know from having worked at Omniture and Adobe is that wait a couple quarters in the branding will probably change.


Jenn Kunz: (11:40)

I'm going to keep calling it Launch even though it's data collection tags now. 


Cameron Cowan: (11:44)

Yeah, one of the things that I do appreciate is I remember back in like 2005, 6, we used to talk to people about psych catalyst being able to ingest data from all these external places and using uploads and data sources to get more data in that didn't naturally get collected by web analytics tags. So at least with CJA and what I've seen initially, that vision, which is now a decade and a half old, is really starting to bear fruit. People are indeed able to merge together all kinds of data and still use, like you said, that awesome reporting interface that is analysis workspace, but not use it strictly for web analytics only data. 


Jenn Kunz: (12:23)

Right. Exactly. Yeah. 


Jenn Kunz: (12:27)

Oh, go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to, it's an interesting proposition though, because I think the folks that are familiar with analysis workspace are not the data science team and the people that are currently doing all of the deep querying of data. And I think Adobe has a tough job ahead of them, of trying to edge more into that space and find the audience for folks who love Adobe products and understand what Adobe's getting at, but also understand data schema and querying and all of the background stuff that makes CJA work. So I'm curious how that takes off. 


Cameron Cowan: (13:04)

And then you're now directly competing with some of the biggest business intelligence and data visualization platforms like Tableau, Microsoft's tool. 


Jenn Kunz: (13:12)

Although Adobe would tell you that it's not a competitor’s tool, it's a supplemental tool. Like it plays well with those other tools, but indeed they have a hard sell, I think, on some of that. 


Cameron Cowan: (13:22)

So yeah, now one of the ways in which we actually got connected, so like I said, we've known each other back since 2006 was… 


Jenn Kunz: (13:31)

You were my search center buddy. You answered all my search center questions back in the day. 


Cameron Cowan: (13:37)

That is right and we've gone back and forth. Like you said, you bounced in and out of Omniture and then back to Adobe for a few years, but I just ran into you at the Marketing Analytics Summit in Las Vegas last month, and you gave what I thought was really one of the best talks at that entire show. It was great because I was presenting the next day. You essentially primed the entire audience on the topic I wanted to talk about. You gave all the principles and then I actually went in and did some of the practical application the next day to the point where I was checking out their listing and it listed your title as “Principle Architect'' and if you notice the spelling on that…


Jenn Kunz: (14:18)

Well, and it's funny cause I'm known for catching typos and them driving me crazy and I actually didn't see that one until way too late in the game, but somebody else pointed it out. I'm like, how did I not notice? But yeah, 


Cameron Cowan: (14:29)

Well, but I think one of the reasons I called that out is because you really did lay out a bunch of really good principles as they relate to data governance and 


Jenn Kunz: (14:39)

Wow tying it together 


Cameron Cowan: (14:40)

Should we be thinking about, what was the title? Not letting your tags overwhelm you. Something to that effect. I'd love for you to not recast that whole presentation here to our audience, but maybe pull out one or two of the most important nuggets for you. When people are thinking about digital governance and how they should manage, not just analytics, but all of the tags and data that's being collected on their website, what are the things that you're guiding your clients to think about most important? 


Jenn Kunz: (15:06)

A lot of it is really just knowing what you have out there. That alone is a big thing for some companies. A lot of companies, when I started working with them, have hundreds of tags that have been around since who knows how long, and everyone's afraid to delete them because if you don't know who owns it, you don't know who to ask to delete it. 


Mike Fong: (15:28)

I had an acquaintance who, if he's listening, he'll be happy I mentioned him. He's a scorched earth way of doing this. You basically turn off everything and then figure out who squeals basically. 


Jenn Kunz: (15:39)

I actually had a slide in my presentation about how the nuclear option is my preferred way, but it's kind of a hard sell sometimes. So a lot of what I did in preparation for it was figuring out how to actually quantify the impact of maybe having a messy MarTech implementation. As we all know that it's bad, but we don't necessarily know how bad or we just kind of accept that it's a given like, yeah well we have to have tracking. So if it's weighing down the site at all or anything, you have to find the best and prioritize it. But, I think a lot of folks would be surprised by just how much of an impact it does have. So, by the way, pretty much everything I had on my talk is up on my blog at digitaldatatactics.com



Jenn Kunz: (16:26)

I spent a ridiculous amount of, it ended up being 11 blog posts I think, because there's just a lot of detail I wanted to go into. But ways that you can see how your site behaves with your TMS without your TMS and in some cases we saw the tag management system was 15% of the site's overall weight. In one case we saw where, if you look at all the different MarTech technology, including analytics and optimization and things that aren't just retargeting pixels, it was half of the site's weight for one of the media companies I looked at. Now there are ways that you can mitigate that, but even if you have it all asynchronous and all best practices, that's still just a lot. And aside from the site speed impact, there's just the difficulty of maintaining it, both for whatever poor soul is in the tag management system, trying to keep the ship afloat with 180 different tags in different places, or with privacy and all of the changes happening with browser policies and things like that. Trying to keep them updated and compliant becomes harder and harder if you don't have a good control over what's on your site. 


Mike Fong: (17:41)

Jenn, you're just mirroring everything we tell our customers and prospective customers about, what are the benefits to minimizing tags. We always say it can make your page load faster. It definitely isn't going to get slower. It can reduce the burden at an overhead maintenance. It can definitely improve your data quality and also it can definitely reduce your risk of just from a data privacy, right? If you have fewer third party packages, then basically you have less to worry about. There's another reason I interrupted you is that we have a conversation in our audience. So Tony Deitmer I hope I'm saying that, right. Tony asks, are there any third party tags to watch out for that can weigh down the site more than others? Have you seen in your experience any specific tags that will just slow things down? 


Jenn Kunz: (18:32)

They're going to make some vendors out there angry. To be honest, a lot of it has more to do with how things are implemented. I think, for instance, Gtag in theory should be fairly light. but a lot of folks, they copy and paste the Gtag snip it in over and over and over, without realizing that they are pasting that library over and over and over. So you might be loading the same file six times, and it's not that light of a file, but even like a tag management system itself, Google Tag Manager with zero in it is like 30 kilobytes or something like that. And easily that can build and build and build. So some of it is just the sheer volume and how you are deploying it and how careful you are about de-duplicating. Anything that can be de-duplicated. 


Jenn Kunz: (19:15)

 And yeah, somebody asked here, what is weight? Yes, when I say something's heavy, I am talking about load time and page size. And even that's really hard to talk about because when we talk about site speed, are we talking about overall weight, which may or may not be that relevant because things load after the user can already interact with the interface and if it's loading without them knowing it, is it really that big of a problem? Are we talking about time to interaction or first content paint? All of these different terms, everybody has a different definition of what we should be measuring when we're looking at site speed. 


Mike Fong: (19:53)

Jenn, in your experience working with clients and your personal experience, do you find that organizations are still, is there a target page, weight or size or low time that they're targeting? And is it generally based on say a desktop full screen kind of device, because you can have a page size, which is absolutely adequate for a full broadband connection, but if you've got 20, 30 or above percent of your customers accessing your page from a mobile device, are you finding that organizations are behind on thinking about those mobile page weights? 


Jenn Kunz: (20:28)

I think they're trying more and more. I have certainly heard more conversations about mobile, but here's what usually happens. The tech team or the SEO team comes to the analytics team and says, MarTech stuff is too heavy. It's slowing down the site, it's bringing our SEO score down, fix it up and maybe some of it might be fixed up and cleaned up, but in the end, there's usually a point where we're like, it's as good as we can get it. And it is what we have to have track. And we are paying a lot of money for these tools and these marketing campaigns. So we're going to prioritize it even though we know it's going to slow the site down some. So we do see that a lot. Sorry, to get back to Tony's question real quick, I will say you have to watch out for any tool where another party can add tags to your site. So like Double Click for publishers. I'm trying to remember some of the other ones, but there are a lot where other tags can now piggyback on it and that's where things get really slowed down. You deployed a single tag, but it actually added nine different tags to your site. 


Cameron Cowan: (21:32)

Yeah, we've definitely seen a number of instances. I mean, the one that sticks out to me is whenever you embed a YouTube video onto your website, unless you do it in a very specific way, it's always going to have Google ad remarketing coming along for the ride, whether you want it there or not. Similar we saw when LinkedIn purchased, is it Drawbridge, now that Drawbridge Tag gets fired off because you have LinkedIn tags on your site, not because you implement it. So, yeah, we definitely see that piggybacking show up quite a bit. One of the things that I was wondering about Jenn, you talk about just overall performance and the impact of tags and weight on both user experience, as well as just how long the page takes to load behind the scene. There are those that believe server side may be this magic bullet to help solve all those ills. What’s your quick perspective on server side and then its ability to help, but also, how you see it growing and being adopted in the market you're working with. 


Jenn Kunz: (22:23)

So server side is actually a really good solution for helping with site speed issues. That is the main thing that it is a great solution for. What it is not, perhaps a great solution for that. The industry gets really confused on is the cookie apocalypse or whatever we want to call it. Moving to a cookieless future. Actually, I literally was just on #measure slack, talking about this with someone who is saying, okay, we're moving the server side. How do we do this cookieless thing? And well, the bad news is, vendors still need a way to identify users as they go from page to page. So if you have the JavaScript side of your server side implementation, they're still going to be cookies. There's still going to be consent and things are maybe improving with the ability to maybe define your own user ID. 


Jenn Kunz: (23:14)

But in that case, you better know that you can do it consistently and it is still a mess. And to be honest, server side, it certainly doesn't hurt it, but in many cases it doesn't help either. So that's my big thing on server side is, yes, site speed, it should help. Don't let it make you or don't get sloppy just because you can though. I do think a lot of folks, we're moving to server side, let's deploy all of the things. It's not going to hurt anyone. IT is not going to yell at us, SEO team is not going to yell at us anymore, it won't cause JavaScript errors, but compliance is definitely still a thing and just because the user can't see that you are, they have a personal identifier that's reporting on their side activity. Even if there is no personally identifiable information, GDPR and CCPA, they don't care whether it's personally identifiable information. It's just, is it personal information? So an anonymous ID, like Google or Adobe uses, still counts as my personal information because it's on my browser and it reports my history. So even if I'm on server side, that’s still true, even if I'm not using a single cookie, that's still true. It's what we are tracking that matters and I think a lot of people get really confused and wrapped up in just the of client side implementations that use cookies are bad and everything else is better and it's not necessarily 


Cameron Cowan: (24:40)

True, and I really appreciate that perspective because so many people that are pushing the service side discussion only talk about everything that's in the pros column and they don't bring up, oh there's reasons not to do it or challenges you're going have to overcome if you do do it. 


Jenn Kunz: (24:53)

That's my specialty. I'm really good at pointing at bursting people's bubbles. 


Cameron Cowan: (25:03)

As a very slight detour, but you brought up the cookie apocalypse I think is the term we used library. Just hot off the press is something we saw come through just yesterday. It looks like Google is, once again, announcing another delay. And when they think they're going to formally and fully be blocking third party cookies. So we originally heard in January of 2020 that it was going to be within two years. So the end of this current year we're in now. Then last year they bumped it to 2023 and it looks like as of yesterday, they're kinda pushing that out further. Are we ever going to get there, Jenn ? How do you see this changing the landscape? Does this affect how you would advise your customers thinking about third party tags and cookies? 


Jenn Kunz: (25:43)

Are we ever going to get there is an interesting question because yeah, Google has been redefining and I don't think anyone is very shocked by the announcement though. It is certainly an important thing to be aware of, but we all have to remember that safari is already out there and it is already blocking third party cookies and has been for a little while and blocking a lot of first party cookies depending on how you set it. Depending on your business model and your audience. I think in general, like half of the internet is on safari because people are on their iPhones. So we focus a lot on Google, but really we should be playing to the, I don't want to say the lowest common denominator, but the most strict, I suppose, because that still has a really big impact, with Google. 


Jenn Kunz: (26:31)

It's interesting though, because so much of it hasn't been necessarily about getting rid of third party cookies. It's what are we doing to replace it? When they announced that they were moving away from third party cookies, initially it was what FLOC, the federated learning of cohorts. And now it's topics and they keep kind of changing their approach, but really what they're trying to do is make it so you can still retarget even without a cookie, which brings me back to what I was just a lot of compliance laws and a lot of what people get upset about doesn't care if it's a cookie or not, they it's what you are doing with the data that matters. So Google has a really hard job ahead of them if they're going to try to make it so we can still do all of the retargeting and all of the stuff that knows about the user, but doesn't know about them in a way that freaks people out, I guess. But I also have strong opinions on whether or not people should be freaked out by retargeting, but that's probably another discussion as well. 


Cameron Cowan: (27:32)

Yeah, I'm sure that's a whole other half hour or so. One more kinda newsworthy thing I wanted to quickly hit on before you before we run out of time today is the announcement that was made just a few weeks ago by Mozilla. We talk about privacy implications and what browsers are doing to kind of tighten that up. Firefox is now giving people the ability to strip URL parameters. So go in and actually say, you know what, when they hit my landing pages, there's no more CIDs, there's no more tokens. 


Jenn Kunz: (28:03)

It's strip certain URL parameters for now. 


Mike Fong: (28:08)

It's an option that users can enable if they choose to. It's not something that happens by default. SoI think it'll have the same effect as an ad blocker. Customers who choose to will be able to block that tracking basically.


Jenn Kunz: (28:24)

From what I understand though, like it's focusing on the known bad, like everyone hates Facebook. So the FBCLID that's the first prime target, but the good news is, is most of the folks on Adobe, at least, you know, if you have a CID if you have a CPID a lot of that is safe for the time. 


Mike Fong: (28:42)

I actually ran a test. Jenn, I actually ran a test. Oh yeah. I updated to the latest version of Firefox. I turned on the setting and I made up my own query parameter and it removed it straight away. 


Cameron Cowan: (28:54)

Oh, wow. So maybe at the most setting, it'll take everything off, but also have some others that are known. Yeah. I know that when I look at the list, there's like half a dozen of them. I'm like, okay, Facebook, I get some of the others. They seem a little obscure. Marketo's got a pretty big market share. 


Jenn Kunz: (29:08)

Yeah. Right. 


Cameron Cowan: (29:08)

Even heard of them they're like, yeah, we're going to strip them because we don't like them. Yeah. I think for me, the bigger implication isn't that this is happening and it's happening on Firefox. I put in the stats there at the bottom. Firefox is between the, if depending on the data you look at, is between 3% and 4% of market shares. So that's not big, but what happens if all of a sudden tomorrow Apple says, you know what, in safari, we're going to strip off anything that says UTM and that's a massive disruption. 


Jenn Kunz: (29:35)

Yeah, exactly. That’s my thing too, is that this is the beginning and I'll be honest, I get really frustrated by it because what problem are we trying to solve? I think there's a lot of fear mongering about like, we're protecting you from the big bad trackers, in the ways that are obvious and easy to do, like blocking third party trackers without actually looking at how that improves the users experience and prevents them from harm but like I said, that's probably a whole other discussion. 


Mike Fong: (30:07)

We're entering a parameter battle phase of the browser wars right. 


Jenn Kunz: (30:12)

Yeah exactly. Who can scare users the most into thinking that they are protecting them the best. 


Mike Fong: (30:18)

Yeah, and it's a shame because lots of users don't realize that if that were to go mainstream and become a default behavior, you'd lose all those affiliate code discounts, affiliate tracking, voucher codes, those just simply collapse. Everyone's gotta figure out a new way to find their discounts or maybe people, organizations will just price their products in a more affordable way.


Jenn Kunz: (30:39)

Yeah, I was just going to say, we could get around it by using header values and that, I call it whackamole what's going on. Particularly with Apple where they say no third party cookie Adobe says, okay, first party cookies will use c names And then Apple says, no c names either and it's just, we find a solution and it lasts a little while and then Apple's usually the first one to pop in and say, nope, you have to find a new workaround. 


Cameron Cowan: (31:10)

The interesting thing for me there is that no matter what happens, it's like water. It's always finding a way out. And if you close one, it's just going to find another pore to slide through.


Jenn Kunz: (31:19)

And advertising is too big and too powerful for it to just be shut down entirely. So there's always going to be a way. 


Mike Fong: (31:28)

I can see a situation where I think it's the competitions and market authority or come along and just say, you know, hey Apple, you're abusing your position by basically targeting UTM parameters or third party cookies, or first party cookies or headers, and just say, stop it. 


Jenn Kunz: (31:49)

Europe might, the U.S probably never will. 


Mike Fong: (31:54)

Yeah. Well, we're just about big enough to have an impact on the way these organizations work. 


Cameron Cowan: (31:59)

Good luck with that Mike. Well, I know we're just past the bottom of the hour, Jenn. This has been fantastic to catch up with you and talk about some of these topics. I was looking at my notes and there's still probably another half a dozen I'd love to get in with you. So we're definitely going to want to have you come back at some point. 


Jenn Kunz: (32:06)

Yeah, I would love that. 


Cameron Cowan: (32:08)

To continue the discussion, for those that are listening and they want to get ahold of you, or just see some of the work you're doing work, where can people reach you on?


Jenn Kunz: (32:14)

I am not hard to find, I'm on Twitter, just Jenn Kunz and @Jenn_Kunz I'm also on measure slack, which I really encourage anyone out there to be on. It's kind of the industry slack channel. Anyone can join any questions that you have about Adobe Analytics or GTM or whatever it is. I spend altogether way too much time in there answering questions and asking questions. So I'm always happy to help out, often too willingly distracted from my day job. 


Cameron Cowan: (32:43)

Well, it's been fantastic to have you with us and on behalf of Mike and myself, the OP community, appreciate it and until next time we will see you later. 


Jenn Kunz: (32:53)

Thank you guys very much. Have a good day. 


Mike Fong (33:03)

Thanks a lot, Jenn.

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